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Why are single guys so disliked here

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Warming the Bed
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Well written lonelydad and i agree respect is always a good starting point Hans
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Overall a good read, lonelydad.
We have a few differences of opinion though.
as for previous comments as to possible reasons why singles are here ... ... to hopefully enjoy some hassle free uncomplicated sex ,,,just like you ,,,if I liked jewellery I would join I gem club ,,,would it matter if I single or married there ,,,no of course not ,,so why should it matter here ??

Our view of what swinging is all about is not getting "some hassle free, uncomplicated sex". That's very much a non-swinger single person's outlook. Swinging to us is about giving your partner the gift of pleasure from another person (or sharing in that together). It's about your partner, not yourself. About giving, not getting. We're willing to bet that a good proportion of the single guys on here would never consider letting a future girlfriend have sex with another man. Those guys are only on here to find sex - they're not here to "swing". There's nothing particularly wrong with either path, we just wanted to explain that distinction (and help you understand why some people get annoyed that this place advertises itself as a "swingers" site when it's really just a sex site).
in years to come I may choose to take another partner or possibly even a wife ,,,,but if I do ,,will I suddenly become a better person or more desirable ,,,pffft doubt it

It won't make you a better person, but you will have more to offer another couple. You will also have greater upfront credibility as a swinger, rather than the initial assumption that you are just another single guy looking for a root. Assuming you'd be happy to let her have sex with another guy that is. wink
if blokes didn't go ,,,how much more are you lot prepared to pay to keep your clubs going

Here in Melbourne, one of the most successful regular swingers events is Debauchery - which is strictly couples only. There is also the quarterly Saints & Sinners ball, which is huge, and also strictly couples only. Yes, some clubs go for the single male money grab, but the best ones tend not to (or at least have a mix of singles nights and couples only nights). You would be wrong to assume that single guys are the financial mainstay of all swingers clubs.
Orgasminator
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if blokes didn't go ,,,how much more are you lot prepared to pay to keep your clubs going

Here in Melbourne, one of the most successful regular swingers events is Debauchery - which is strictly couples only. There is also the quarterly Saints & Sinners ball, which is huge, and also strictly couples only. Yes, some clubs go for the single male money grab, but the best ones tend not to (or at least have a mix of singles nights and couples only nights). You would be wrong to assume that single guys are the financial mainstay of all swingers clubs.
i couldnt agree more with your post rempted. theres a few around that are couples only and very successful, you must remember single men pay more to get in because they are less desirable to couples. yes some couples want them but id have to say most dont. even if your a couple and you wife isnt coming then id say you just became a single male . also think what have you got to offer me, as a single male, you have nobody to bring for me to play with and im not into men. your going to have sex with my wife which is a real treat for you, yes we can both have sex with my wife but i can do that at home anytime i want .
just for fun, answer this in your head, how would you feel taking your wife/partener out to be fucked by somebody else and you dont get to try somebody new?
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how would I feel , should I re-marry or gain a full time partner , would I let other blokes come fuck her ??? hmmm lets see , yes ,I would ,if that was what she wanted , my ex wife was and is dead against this lifestyle, so I left the scene for the entire time I was with her, as you say in a couples situation if one don't play the other doesn't either, and I am not one for going around behind the others back , infact I have refused several offers by women doing exactly that ,,just not my thing. what do I bring to the table for the male half of a couple ??? fuck all really other than the enjoyment he may receive in watching his wife being pleasured, and that's not to say that I can or would do any better job of it than her own husband already does. as I stated in my rant above ,,,it is not just the hassle free uncomplicated sex I personally am after , I am also looking for long term friends and have actually found some here ,,,a few of whom are couples who do not look for blokes and one in particular who comes to visit with NO sex involved whatsoever, there is however plenty of couples out there who do look for a single bloke for mfm threesomes and these are the ones whom I try to contact, never those who have obviously and plainly stated they don't look for guys such as me ,,,again simple respect. we all , couples , singles , male , female , transgender, or gay , have a place here , and those places are definitely clearly defined , it is plainly and openly marked out in each and every profile that we look at, the problem as we are all aware arises when anyone refuses to read or ignore what they have read and make contact, be that in a well written message or a basic stupid ,wanna fuck one liner sent to those who do not wish to receive, I do not have the full answer in solving this problem other than to ask/beg any and all to report this behaviour , the sooner we can rid of this element the better the experience for all , you couples may or may not be aware of it but you are not the only ones to receive unwanted/unwarranted and even pointlessly abusive messages from the small minority that fuck it for us all
Warming the Bed
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Single guys really do get a bad wrap on here. The number of profiles that say NO SINGLE GUYS is disappointing. I have no doubt there are rude, annoying, ignorant, and pushy single guys on this site but there are some couples and single women who are equally as obnoxious.
Phrasing profiles in positive terms and explaining what/who you're looking for makes for a more inclusive site. To simply say 'no single guys' is as offensive a generalisation as seeing 'no fat chicks', 'no Asians', 'no oldies'. If somebody sends you a message and they're not what you're seeking (and clearly haven't read what you ARE looking for in your profile), ignore the message and delete it.
To make blanket statements excluding entire sections of the membership is narrow-minded and thoughtless. There are plenty of eloquent, adventurous, sane, fun, and caring single guys on here and some couples miss an opportunity to ever interact with them by displaying their ignorance on their profile. I have no qualms clicking away from a profile the moment I see such exclusionary statements.
They do nothing for the self-esteem of single guys viewing profiles and they don't foster a sense of community or inclusion either.
The superior attitude of some couples and women flows into the chatrooms and forums too. It's not pretty to watch, and the women and couples who take advantage of that power balance very quickly make it onto my no-go list. And that's not 'no-go' in the sense of having sex, it means I have no interest in communicating with them based on the way they treat others.
There've been some very articulate posts from single guys on here and some less-convincing posts from couples trying to justify their behaviour with that perceived sense of power they have, and the "you'd do it too if you had the opportunity" attitude.
Yes, we all have choices and preferences. It's how we express them that's the issue here. Single guys are definitely at the bottom of the food chain on this site and it's a status quo happily maintained by quite a few couples and women here.
Swinging is not the sole domain of couples playing with other couples. It's anybody in a committed relationship playing with others whether they be other couples or singles.
Naturally, I'm prepared for the responses from those in relationships who'll justify their behaviours and have me sounding bitter because I'm a single male. This is not written from a perspective where I feel I'm missing out on something good. Quite the contrary.
We can all word our profiles in non-exclusive terms and still make it clear what we want. Those of us who don't are either lazy, uncreative, careless, lack empathy, or a combination of all those things.
I've met some fantastic couples and some really great single guys through this site and it's been a pleasure to see them interacting at group sessions I've arranged.
Seeing 'no single males' on a profile certainly helps weed out the insular and restrictive couples but I still despise the stench of privilege and exclusivity that permeates through the site as a result.
http://www.swingersheaven.com.au/groups/949/
Sex God
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I love the way you have worded this.. smile I wait with baited breath to see the reply.. :) Thanks Nt... The problem isnt just this site though, and is across most of the uummm adult sites, that i have seen. Worse luck. I have to say i agree, with you comments... But then again, these days I prefer, and have stated Im not looking for partners or partner. Specially not here. For very much the reasons you have stated. Im afraid, my wording wont be up to par for some. :) Let alone not my normal sarcastic self. But thanks for the post. Rose
Orgasminator
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nt lad i may not be articulate or able to write to a high standard but i went right through that crap. its well written but mate you should be a politician. if i dont want a single bloke then i dont want a single bloke, how hard is that to understand. i dont care what you write or how much you insult couples who dont want single men, it wont happen. it will probably even lower your chances now. like lonely dad said "single blokes are not hated. we as the vast majority , are simply not wanted by many of those we seek. " thats exactly right. but i have heard many good things about lonelydad from different sources. think about what i have said before. what have you got to offer me? nothing ! you bring nothing to the table to play with, i bring my wife. yes some couples do want single men but we dont so why should we even bother with them. same for couples where the wife is busy or cant make it. forget it as for some of your statements well what can i say. "To make blanket statements excluding entire sections of the membership is narrow-minded and thoughtless" dont want it why not say it .that doesnt make me narrow minded or thoughtless. it says i dont want certain types of people and i dont waste thier time thats if they can read. "To simply say 'no single guys' is as offensive a generalisation as seeing 'no fat chicks', 'no Asians', 'no oldies'" if i dont want it ill put it in. if i dont like food i wont eat it, if i dont like a place i wont go there if i dont like a person or type of person i wont go there either, its simple. im here for what i like not for what other people want. this site is all about ME and my wifes pleasure. "They do nothing for the self-esteem of single guys viewing profiles and they don't foster a sense of community or inclusion either. " dont care, im not on here for others im on here for us as a couple. if anybody has self esteem issues from my likes and dislikes tough "There've been some very articulate posts from single guys on here and some less-convincing posts from couples trying to justify their behaviour with that perceived sense of power they have, and the "you'd do it too if you had the opportunity" attitude." articulate doesnt make you a better person and i dont have to justify my actions for who we want. "Naturally, I'm prepared for the responses from those in relationships who'll justify their behaviours and have me sounding bitter because I'm a single male. This is not written from a perspective where I feel I'm missing out on something good. Quite the contrary" yeah right "Seeing 'no single males' on a profile certainly helps weed out the insular and restrictive couples but I still despise the stench of privilege and exclusivity that permeates through the site as a result." insular and restrictive ??? yes im restrictive because we have no interest in single men, we chat to them if theyre polite and can string 2 words together but we dont play with them. single men dont interest us and will not happen. if that gives me privelege and exclusivity then good. if you had a partener you would see the world differently. women are like a chip, they bring seagulls. one chip 2000 seagulls. oh and by the way i dont feed seagulls either.
Orgasminator
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Quote by TheRose
I love the way you have worded this.. smile
I wait with baited breath to see the reply.. :)
Thanks Nt...
The problem isnt just this site though, and is across most of the uummm adult sites, that i have seen.
Worse luck. I have to say i agree, with you comments...
But then again, these days I prefer, and have stated Im not looking for partners or partner. Specially not here. For very much the reasons you have stated.
Im afraid, my wording wont be up to par for some. :) Let alone not my normal sarcastic self.
But thanks for the post.
Rose

rose, so disappointed hun lol i like your responses but i give this a 3 lol id like to see some sarcasm
Warming the Bed
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Quote by mr_twonewbies
women are like a chip, they bring seagulls.

Damn, why are all the romantic guys already taken? There's a dose of sarcasm for you.
You may well compare single men to seagulls but they're not the ones going, "Mine! Mine! Mine!"
Orgasminator
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Quote by nt_lad
women are like a chip, they bring seagulls.

Damn, why are all the romantic guys already taken? There's a dose of sarcasm for you.
You may well compare single men to seagulls but they're not the ones going, "Mine! Mine! Mine!"
ummm check out the chat rooms when a pair of breasts are revealled lol
oh and as for sarcasm, it doesnt work on me. i dont care lol
Orgasminator
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each to thier own. i think ill go molest my wife lol
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Im with twonewbies. As cpls all know on here we go on cam and the single guys come out and can be very annoying, funny you never get that from real cpls, when I say that I mean the ones you see both on cam. We state no single guys because we don't want them not for the reasons stated by nt. And his comment about weeding out the cpls from our 'no single guys' well what are you weeding out ppl who don't want you in the first place, thanks for the favour mate
Sexlightened
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Actually, saying "no single guys" is very different to saying "no fat/Asian/old" whatever... "No single guys" lets you the reader know that the couple involved are looking for an experience with a particular dynamic -Tempted said it best when he talked about sharing the gift of pleasure. The absolute best part of swinging for me is not about fucking another man but rather having my husband pleasure/ be pleasured by somebody else - and he feels that way as well when he explains what he gets out of it in terms of my involvement. So, I'm looking for somebody who will allow me to give him that and he is looking for somebody who can do the same for me. It's not being insular to say "no single guys" , it simply isn't going to achieve the ends we wish to achieve, that a couple could. It's NOT like saying no old/fat/ whatever because those things are different. A cpl might not prefer those things, but the scenario could still operate successfully, with both being able to provide the other with pleasure from another, whereas it could not do so with just a single bloke (bisexuality aside). I'm happy to acknowledge that we are both bisexual and the flaw in my argument above is that a single man could indeed be able to provide this scenario for us. I'm speaking in general broad terms here; also acknowledging that genuine bisexual single males are a significant rarity - throw a woman into the mix and most bi men's bisexuality seems to evaporate!
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sorry nt ,,,I have to agree with the twonewbies .......every one here has a right to choose whom they will or will not playwith ,,,and to clearly say so is not discrimination any way shape or form ,,,,but merely a public declaration of what those choices are ,,,,,who can argue with that and possibly hope to win ?????? leave those who don't want us be ,,,,they aren't harming us nor wasting our time ,,,,just as the decent single blokes don't waste theirs ....have a look if you like ,,post a complimentary comment if you feel the need, no-one is going to mind that at all ,,,keep any negative thoughts or tears at lot opportunities ( which weren't really there anyhow) and move on ,,,,I figure that pretty much ,,for each couple who states no ,,,there is a couple or single lady who will either say yes or at least give us ( single blokes ) an opportunity to prove we aren't going to waste their or take the piss out of them. god it's so simple ,,,, do unto others as you would have done unto you ... who enjoys hassle or harressment ???? not me . happy hunting all
Orgasminator
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ms twiddle and lonely dad, i couldnt sgree more with either of you. brilliant replies. pity im not as good with words lol
Casanova
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You have some good replies mr2. And the seagul statement is pretty accurate I would love to be on mrs2 side of the cam when she is on. I reckon her "who's watching me" list would be a mile long and the "whispers" would eating up your pc's ram. Even me, being a bi single bloke gets pestered by people outside of those I have described, and not just on this site. What does annoy me is people who say they are looking for someone with a description that fits me, and then say I'm not what they are looking for. People who have in their profile that they are looking for single/bi men but write back that they are only looking for girls or couples. People who chat with you over and over and say the want to meet but either dont turn up or cease all contact. Blokes posing as couples but want to have sex without their parner present, and wont intro you to the partner. That last one is almost as bad as men having a couples profile without the partner's knowledge. I've been to orgies where the men have hung around the girls like flies at a bbq. I have even seen girls/couples leave because this behavior has made them uncomfortable. My tip, give sone space guys because its not alwsys about what you want.
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nt_lad - it's a pity you ruined what could have been a worthwhile comment with vitriol that only serves to show how bitter you are (and bitterness is not sexy).
Here's the worthwhile part of your post:
Phrasing profiles in positive terms and explaining what/who you're looking for makes for a more inclusive site.

We do largely agree. Though you need to understand that when couples describe what they ARE looking for, the hordes of single guys NOT included in that description will still message with all manner of cheesy, tasteless and sometimes incredibly moronic messages. If couples don't answer, singles complain "why don't people even have the basic courtesy to reply". If we do reply to everyone it can become a tiresome chore when 99% of those messages are from people who never met the description of what you are looking for in the first place. Then some guys won't take no for an answer, or get nasty when they're turned down, etc. You may see the "NO SINGLE GUYS!!!" line as offensive, but in many cases it's born out of frustration on the part of the couple because if it's any less blatant then it gets completely ignored. (Hell, it gets ignored even when it IS so blatant)
After your worthwhile comment above, you then went and shot yourself in the foot with this:
To make blanket statements excluding entire sections of the membership is narrow-minded and thoughtless. There are plenty of eloquent, adventurous, sane, fun, and caring single guys on here

Ok, so there's a couple who want to experience a FFM threesome. Maybe because the Mrs is curious about some girl on girl action, and who is Mr to say no to that! Yes, there are some eloquent, adventurous, sane, fun, and caring single guys. But the couple is only after a girl. Why do their niche fantasies make them narrow-minded and thoughtless?! You think saying "No single guys" is offensive, and then you spit out a line like that?! Sorry, but the credibility and merit of your post, and indeed your entire opinion, just fell through the floor.
Sexlightened
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Nt_lad, phrasing our profiles for what we are looking for simply makes sense, it is more efficient and at the end of the day, it is what we want. If single guys ever took a few minutes of their valuable time reading profiles, perhaps we wouldn't be so short or obnoxious when you contact/pm us in the chatroom, telling us how horny you are or criticising Mr Bay because he will not share. As you say, there are plenty of eloquent, adventurous, sane, fun, and caring single guys on here, what you fail to appreciate, if a couple specifies 'No single guys' they obviously have their reasons and any decent single male should respect their wishes. Stating our wishes or desires should not be construed as being narrow-minded, thoughtless and being branded as such. People are rejected for many reasons; uncircumcised, large, hairy, not hung etc. If there is one thing we have learnt from being in this lifestyle and that is you must be prepared for disappointment and your self-esteem taking a beating. The perception of superiority over single males in chatrooms and forums can be misconstrued as us having no tolerance for single males. Spend few moments in our shoes and you will very quickly sympathise with us when you are on the receiving end of the distasteful comments or the criticism we are bombarded with from single guys. Actually Mr Bay holds no power in this relationship, pussy rules absolute! Should we be picking on single females, because really they hold all the cards. What couple wouldn't love the idea of a single female joining them in a Ménage a trios. Finding a single female to join us is like finding hens teeth. Their ocean seems far more plentiful compare to a couples. Nt_lad, if our choices and preferences can be enunciated in any other way that doesn't offend single males but still gets our message across, I am all ears. But complicating the tone in which the profiles are written, when a single male with over-active libido is only going to misinterpreted the context, is in my opinion a pointless exercise (I am all for KISS). Trashing couples because of their preference is flaunt with danger and will only get you into hot water. If you feel you are getting no satisfaction in chatrooms then our best advice to you is attend meet and greets, meet couples/people face-to-face and who knows where it may lead. We have no single males clearly stated in our profile, yet we have single males on our friends list, how did they get there you may ask? They did one simple thing, they spoke to us like human beings and not like we were on here to satisfy their needs. The Bays
Orgasminator
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bays, so beautifully said. :cheers: that had to be mrs because mr has the same word usage as me lol
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[quote="nt_lad"]Single guys really do get a bad wrap on here. The number of profiles that say NO SINGLE GUYS is disappointing. I have no doubt there are rude, annoying, ignorant, and pushy single guys on this site but there are some couples and single women who are equally as obnoxious. Why is it dissapointing that a couple would have NO SINGLE GUYS on thier profile , does the same apply to single women that have NO COUPLES on thier profile ? It is up to the person who has the profile to put what they want on it , for the ones that actualy do read the profiles and get past the photos it lets them know what the other person is looking for before sending off a useless flirt or message to some one that will have zero intrest to them The amount of single guys that still message us even with NO SINGLE GUYS on our profile is unreal and more often than not the frst line is "i loved your profile want to meet"
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Well here is one experiance we have had just in the last couple of days , from another site we were contacted by a "couple" that wanted to meet up with us straight away , we exchanged a few SMS messages , as the messages went on you could see the shift in how he was setting them out to be more about him and wanting to meet now Well he gave his adress without a street number so we looked it up on good old google maps and guess what it turned out to be a dead end street in the middle of a industrial area of the outer western suburbs of Melbourne Alarm bells started to ring hmmmm ok , we get messaged again to meet Saturday night so say ok we will meet you but we will host get your lady to call us for the details , guess what never heard a thing back no phone call no sms nothing clearly a single male posing as a couple and the request to speak with the female half is where it came to a hault He also kept sending photos of just his hard dick with the wording "are you ready for this" clearly he didnt know he was sending them to the male half of us lol
Sex God
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Isnt always single guys, that dont turn up and can be twits, in general. Within the first year of chat here. I was lucky enough to meet many wonderful folk, on both side of the line, singles and couples. Only time i had a no show, was a couple, no message no nothing.... They are still on site, they Use and read the forum often. Often saying one thing, and yet..... Its funny how the No single guy, comments and threads get played often. But lumping them all.. in the one basket.... Let alone, hearing those that do comment, being told they are always wrong.... Is a shame.... Is now very glad i never did meet that couple..... I still get folk, who tell me they love my profile, and tell me they have read it, but still message with a lets meet up.. and so on... And they travel both sides of the line. I always ask, what part is it they like?? They go back to read and, well yeh... You get the idea... And though i get disappointed, seeing these threads pop up, it only shows me, who i wouldnt want to hang with anyway. Hearing folks going on how bad it is.... It does make me wonder why they bother to stay, and not head to a site, that gives them just what they go on about. Oh well.... good thing, I just add those folks to my block list..
Orgasminator
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i only stay for you rose, :evil2: oh and the knitting group
Sex God
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Quote by mr_twonewbies
i only stay for you rose, :evil2:
oh and the knitting group

lmao - good thing im a nanny - i need to learn to knit :P
Sexlightened
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Mr two :thumbup:, thankyou for those kind words, close but no cigar :moon: , Mrs Bay thought I was going a little over the top. The post from nt_lad hit a nerve and I guess a felt I had to throw in my 50 cents (incremented with inflation) worth. I want to get on to Plenty of Fish (POF) and asked them why we cannot have a couples profile :taz: The Bays
Forum Virgin
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This is my first foray into replying in the forums though most regular visitors know my significant other often shares his view. So here goes... I am still quite angry with some (no names of course) that I decided to step up on my soapbox and have my say for all its worth! :mad: :jagsatwork: We like many others, are here for us, we enjoy many aspects of the site and what other couples have to offer and above all we enjoy meeting new people making new friends, socialising and what ever comes from that is a bonus. But we, like any normal human being, whether as a couple here or people searching for a life partner, has a personal preference of what we like and what turns us on. If we read a profile and a couple expresses they are only looking for a single male or female we respect their wishes and don't send messages or bomb into their private chat. Unfortunately this cannot be said for many single males which becomes frustrating and eventually we get sick of it and we reach a saturation point. So when chatting in main we once again receive crude comments, offers and references to your a 'magnificent' anatomy that can please us like no other. You have been ignored several times previously but continue to enter and THEN when you receive a not so polite comment you run to the mods and cry abuse. So single guys, this is an adult site, you want to play adult games but you go tittle tattling like a little boy. Or is this some kind of game? To me constantly entering a private chat uninvited is abusive, offensive not to mention disrespectful to our wishes. We state our preferences to circumvent any distasteful behaviour. Take the hint and show some respect. Last I heard No meant NO so man up! :small-print: That is all smile
Master of Sex
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fact we are a couple so we have a couples profile fact we dont want to change the shared dynamic we enjoy so to save you and us grief we say "no single males" Really If you feel your man enough to play adult games, can you justify bitching about simple fact of life, that others might have a preference. Like every one claiming an open mind, your mind is only open to the things your open to. Posting about fairness and righteousness is undermined by an inability to open your mind. "News flash" the world isn't about you personally, open your mind to this, such intimate sexual and relationship issues are so personal that some will be excluded and others included, without any requirement for your input. Flip the coin spend your efforts with the ones who want a single male be aware that still may not be you personally. There are no guarantees that your wanted or acceptable partner in any situation Pssssssssssst they are the ones who unfairly say they want a single male in their profile for your convenience
Sex God
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Quote by QandOK
This is my first foray into replying in the forums though most regular visitors know my significant other often shares his view.
So here goes... I am still quite angry with some (no names of course) that I decided to step up on my soapbox and have my say for all its worth! :mad: :jagsatwork:
We like many others, are here for us, we enjoy many aspects of the site and what other couples have to offer and above all we enjoy meeting new people making new friends, socialising and what ever comes from that is a bonus.
But we, like any normal human being, whether as a couple here or people searching for a life partner, has a personal preference of what we like and what turns us on. If we read a profile and a couple expresses they are only looking for a single male or female we respect their wishes and don't send messages or bomb into their private chat.
Unfortunately this cannot be said for many single males which becomes frustrating and eventually we get sick of it and we reach a saturation point. So when chatting in main we once again receive crude comments, offers and references to your a 'magnificent' anatomy that can please us like no other. You have been ignored several times previously but continue to enter and THEN when you receive a not so polite comment you run to the mods and cry abuse. So single guys, this is an adult site, you want to play adult games but you go tittle tattling like a little boy. Or is this some kind of game?
To me constantly entering a private chat uninvited is abusive, offensive not to mention disrespectful to our wishes. We state our preferences to circumvent any distasteful behaviour. :small-print:
Take the hint and show some respect. Last I heard No meant NO so man up!
That is all smile

Well no means no.. and if your in CHAT and they dont take no....Why not use the block whisper.. *it isnt truly hard to use.* Report them.... And then those folks get into trouble...., rather then the ones..saying No means No....getting into trouble....
No means NO.. and Abuse in any form isnt tolerated by the site.
How you handle it... at least to me.. will show how a person, mans up.....
Sexlightened
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QandOK, well put, I couldn't have said it better myself. It's not like we don't want single males on the site, we just perfer they show a little forethought and a little respect to the wishes/perferences of those on here. Respect is a two way street and if you choose to drive like a reckless maniac then expect to be abused by other road users. The Bays
Orgasminator
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mr bay i change my congratulations to you, very well said and i enjoyed it oh and im glad i didnt get a cigar, i dont smoke lol oh and rose i cant really knit, i can only crochette.